Si supiéramos inglés se podría decir algo. ¿Tú dominas el inglés?Iniciado por aitorg
Tú no tienes cultura forera.
Banned
Si supiéramos inglés se podría decir algo. ¿Tú dominas el inglés?
Tú no tienes cultura forera.
Banned
¿qué quieres decir?
¿que las publicaciones que puso el forista toros no son TJ?
Zion's Watch Tower 1880 Oct pp.2-3.
Zion's Watch Tower 1892 May 15 p.157
si quieres poner excusas pon alguna creible
Banned
Hablé en chino o en Vulcano?. O adoleces de falta de comprensión lectora?
Te explico con manzanitas:
Las referencias del toro están en un idioma foráneo, inglés, este es un foro en español y aunque el inglés es el idioma internacional pocos saben hablarlo, es el caso de tu servidor. Por otro lado es extenso el texto de la referencia:
https://archive.org/stream/1883Zions...Tower_djvu.txt
https://archive.org/stream/1892Zions...Tower_djvu.txt
Quizá tú domines el inglés y nos puedas traer las citas de más de 100 años que atormentan al toro para analizarlas.
Tampoco resulta favorable el traductor robótico de Google.
Última edición por expanium; 22-ene.-2017 a las 11:26
Banned
Toro, andas más perdido que el Teniente Bello. En tu referencia no se enseña adorar a Jesús, algo incorrecto que viola los principios de adoración cristiana.
Zion's Watch Tower 1892 May 15 p.157
Habla que las oraciones no deben dirigirse al Hijo, sino al Padre Jehová, tal como lo enseñó Jesús:
Full text of "1892 Zion's Watch Tower"
R1410age 157
at the house of Brother Davis, a lady
friend who was present made a very strong plea,
showing that our prayers ought to be addressed
to Jesus; that in honoring him we honor the
Father; and that the Father is well pleased
when we go to Jesus in prayer. Furthermore,
he is our head, and we, as members of his body,
are dependent upon him for our life, and all
power is given unto him in heaven and in
earth. He is also our ambassador, and in approaching
the throne we ought to lay our petitions
before Jesus— just as now, should we
have important business with the Queen of
England, we would not think of dealing directly,
but would communicate through our
representative abroad.
I was very much impressed with her remarks.
On my return home my heart went to Jesus in
prayer; language flowed freely and naturally,
and I felt a nearness of his presence which I
never experienced before. I believe it is right,
and that we are by no means dishonoring the
Father, but on the contrary are honoring him
so much the more by honoring the Son. If I
am wrong, dear brother, my earnest prayer is
that I may be set right.
Yours in the Redeemer, H. N. RAHN.
REPLY-"ACCEPTED IN THE BELOVED."
It is undoubtedly proper enough for us to address
petitions to our Redeemer and Advocate,
who loved us and gave himself for us. He is
still interested in us— still loves us. He is still
the Shepherd and Bishop of our souls, and we
are his sheep. He is still our faithful High
Priest, who can be touched with a feeling of our
infirmities and who is ready still to succor them
that are tempted. And although we are nowhere
instructed to make petitions to him, it
evidently could not be improper so to do; for
such a course is nowhere prohibited, and the
disciples worshiped him.— Matt. 28:9,17.
However, it would be a serious error to suppose
that we ought to address our petitions to
our Lord Jesus and not to the Father— "For
the Father himself loveth you" [who are in
Christ]. And it is proper to remember that
every good and perfect gift cometh from the
Father. All things [blessings] are of the Father,
and are by the Son. (1 Cor. 8:6.) Jehovah
is the fountain of our blessings, and our
Lord Jesus is the channel through which they
reach us. "We know that God heareth not
sinners" (John 9:31); and consequently, we,
who by nature were sinners even as others,
could have no audience with Jehovah until justified
by faith in the sin-offering, made on our
behalf, once for all, in the offering of the body
of Jesus, our Lord. As he declared, "No man
cometh unto the Father but by me." But
now, since we do accept of our Lord's sacrifice,
and realize it as the price of our justification,
we have boldness to enter into the Most Holy
[into communion with God] by the blood of
Jesus, and "draw nigh with cleansed hearts
and with full assurance of faith," realizing that
"we are accepted in the Beloved."
Our Lord Jesus not only prayed to the Father
himself, but instructed his followers as to
the general style of their petitions, saying,
"After this manner pray ye— Our Father
which art in heaven," etc. And over and over
again our Lord instructs us to ask of the Father
in his name. (John 14:13,14; 15:16; 16:23,24,26.)
In his name means more than
merely by his authority; and it means more
than the formal closing of a prayer with the
words, "For Christ's sake." It means that the
petitioner coming to the Father must realize his
own actual unworthiness to be received at the
throne of the heavenly grace, or to have his
petition regarded and answered; and that therefore
he presents it in the name and merit of
Christ, his Ransomer— by faith accepting a
share in the justifying merit of the great sin-offering
which he made once for all.
Adam had access to and communion with
God, the Father, when he was perfect— before
he sinned and fell under divine condemnation.
As many of the redeemed race as shall accept
of the grace of God to be extended to all
through Christ shall, when perfected again,
have back this communion and all that was lost.
And we who in the present age are justified by
faith in his blood— in his sacrifice for our sins
—have now this communion— only, so long
as we are not actually perfect, it must always
be exercised through our Mediator; and hence
to hold communion, we must recognize not
only the Mediator, but the ransom which he
gave for all, by which we are made acceptable
to the Father, in him.
SUPER Usuario
No tengo idea quien sera ese tal "teniente bello". Me imagino que no acostumbra a usar gps...Toro, andas más perdido que el Teniente Bello. En tu referencia no se enseña adorar a Jesús, algo incorrecto que viola los principios de adoración cristiana.
Zion's Watch Tower 1892 May 15 p.157
Habla que las oraciones no deben dirigirse al Hijo, sino al Padre Jehová, tal como lo enseñó Jesús:
Full text of "1892 Zion's Watch Tower"
R1410
at the house of Brother Davis, a lady
friend who was present made a very strong plea,
showing that our prayers ought to be addressed
to Jesus; that in honoring him we honor the
Father; and that the Father is well pleased
when we go to Jesus in prayer. Furthermore,
he is our head, and we, as members of his body,
are dependent upon him for our life, and all
power is given unto him in heaven and in
earth. He is also our ambassador, and in approaching
the throne we ought to lay our petitions
before Jesus— just as now, should we
have important business with the Queen of
England, we would not think of dealing directly,
but would communicate through our
representative abroad.
I was very much impressed with her remarks.
On my return home my heart went to Jesus in
prayer; language flowed freely and naturally,
and I felt a nearness of his presence which I
never experienced before. I believe it is right,
and that we are by no means dishonoring the
Father, but on the contrary are honoring him
so much the more by honoring the Son. If I
am wrong, dear brother, my earnest prayer is
that I may be set right.
Yours in the Redeemer, H. N. RAHN.
REPLY-"ACCEPTED IN THE BELOVED."
It is undoubtedly proper enough for us to address
petitions to our Redeemer and Advocate,
who loved us and gave himself for us. He is
still interested in us— still loves us. He is still
the Shepherd and Bishop of our souls, and we
are his sheep. He is still our faithful High
Priest, who can be touched with a feeling of our
infirmities and who is ready still to succor them
that are tempted. And although we are nowhere
instructed to make petitions to him, it
evidently could not be improper so to do; for
such a course is nowhere prohibited, and the
disciples worshiped him.— Matt. 28:9,17.
However, it would be a serious error to suppose
that we ought to address our petitions to
our Lord Jesus and not to the Father— "For
the Father himself loveth you" [who are in
Christ]. And it is proper to remember that
every good and perfect gift cometh from the
Father. All things [blessings] are of the Father,
and are by the Son. (1 Cor. 8:6.) Jehovah
is the fountain of our blessings, and our
Lord Jesus is the channel through which they
reach us. "We know that God heareth not
sinners" (John 9:31); and consequently, we,
who by nature were sinners even as others,
could have no audience with Jehovah until justified
by faith in the sin-offering, made on our
behalf, once for all, in the offering of the body
of Jesus, our Lord. As he declared, "No man
cometh unto the Father but by me." But
now, since we do accept of our Lord's sacrifice,
and realize it as the price of our justification,
we have boldness to enter into the Most Holy
[into communion with God] by the blood of
Jesus, and "draw nigh with cleansed hearts
and with full assurance of faith," realizing that
"we are accepted in the Beloved."
Our Lord Jesus not only prayed to the Father
himself, but instructed his followers as to
the general style of their petitions, saying,
"After this manner pray ye— Our Father
which art in heaven," etc. And over and over
again our Lord instructs us to ask of the Father
in his name. (John 14:13,14; 15:16; 16:23,24,26.)
In his name means more than
merely by his authority; and it means more
than the formal closing of a prayer with the
words, "For Christ's sake." It means that the
petitioner coming to the Father must realize his
own actual unworthiness to be received at the
throne of the heavenly grace, or to have his
petition regarded and answered; and that therefore
he presents it in the name and merit of
Christ, his Ransomer— by faith accepting a
share in the justifying merit of the great sin-offering
which he made once for all.
Adam had access to and communion with
God, the Father, when he was perfect— before
he sinned and fell under divine condemnation.
As many of the redeemed race as shall accept
of the grace of God to be extended to all
through Christ shall, when perfected again,
have back this communion and all that was lost.
And we who in the present age are justified by
faith in his blood— in his sacrifice for our sins
—have now this communion— only, so long
as we are not actually perfect, it must always
be exercised through our Mediator; and hence
to hold communion, we must recognize not
only the Mediator, but the ransom which he
gave for all, by which we are made acceptable
to the Father, in him.
Me permiti colorear en azul el texto de una de las referencia que te habia dado sobre lo que expuse aqui:Comprendo que esta en ingles, pero, contrariamente a ese teniente al que haces referencia y para tu beneficio, deberias acostubrarte a usar la tecnolgia en tu favor, simple asunto de no perderse...
Saludos
.
Última edición por TOROS; 22-ene.-2017 a las 14:01
Banned
supongo que el problema de fondo de los tj es que no sois cristianos sino otra cosa
Banned
Toro, el Teniente Bello fue un desdichado héroe chileno.
Vamos a usar el róbot google en tu cita azul:
It is undoubtedly proper enough for us to address
petitions to our Redeemer and Advocate,
who loved us and gave himself for us. He is
still interested in us— still loves us. He is still
the Shepherd and Bishop of our souls, and we
are his sheep. He is still our faithful High
Priest, who can be touched with a feeling of our
infirmities and who is ready still to succor them
that are tempted. And although we are nowhere
instructed to make petitions to him, it
evidently could not be improper so to do; for
such a course is nowhere prohibited, and the
disciples worshiped him.— Matt. 28:9,17.
In his name means more than
merely by his authority; and it means more
than the formal closing of a prayer with the
words, "For Christ's sake." It means that the
petitioner coming to the Father must realize his
own actual unworthiness to be received at the
throne of the heavenly grace, or to have his
petition regarded and answered; and that therefore
he presents it in the name and merit of
Christ, his Ransomer— by faith accepting a
share in the justifying merit of the great sin-offering
which he made once for all.
Es indudablemente lo suficientemente adecuado para
Peticiones a nuestro Redentor y Abogado,
Quien nos amó y se entregó por nosotros. Él es
Todavía interesado en nosotros- todavía nos ama. Él sigue siendo
El Pastor y Obispo de nuestras almas, y nosotros
Son sus ovejas. Él sigue siendo nuestro fiel
Sacerdote, que puede ser tocado con una sensación de
Enfermos y que está dispuesto a socorrerlos
Que son tentados. Y aunque no estamos en ninguna parte
Instrucciones para hacerle peticiones,
Evidentemente no podía ser impropio hacerlo; para
Tal curso no está prohibido en ninguna parte, y la
Los discípulos le adoraban. 28: 9, 17.
En su nombre significa más de
Sólo por su autoridad; Y significa más
Que el cierre formal de una oración con la
Palabras, "Por el amor de Cristo." Significa que el
El peticionario que viene al Padre debe darse cuenta
Su propia indignidad de ser recibida en el
Trono de la gracia celestial, o tener su
Petición y respuesta; Y que por lo tanto
Lo presenta en el nombre y mérito de
Cristo, su Ransomer- por la fe aceptando una
Participar en el mérito justificante de la gran ofrenda por el pecado
Que hizo una vez por todas.
No se ve ninguna referencia a que a Jesús se le deba adorar. Aquí se está considerando que el oídor de la oración es Dios y no Jesús como afirmaba la persona que se menciona en el artículo:
Dice en parte el artículo: *"Sin embargo, sería un grave error suponer Que debemos dirigir nuestras peticiones a Nuestro Señor Jesús y no al Padre ... por lo tanto Lo presenta [la oración] en el nombre y mérito de Cristo, su Ransomer- por la fe aceptando una Participar en el mérito justificante de la gran ofrenda por el pecado Que hizo una vez por todas." *traducción google.
worshiped lo traduce "adorar" y se da la cita de:
(Mateo 28: 9, 17 NM) Y, ¡mire!, Jesús se encontró con ellas y dijo: “¡Buenos días!”. Ellas se acercaron y lo asieron de*los pies y le rindieron homenaje. 17 y cuando lo vieron, le rindieron homenaje; pero algunos dudaron.
La Nuevo Mundo traduce "rendir homenaje". Sucede que en griego se usa la misma palabra para "adorar" y "rendir homenaje" o postrarse que es "proskyneo"
Traducctores modernos hacen también este matiz en la traducción, Mateo 28:9: (ver e-Sword)
(BPD)* De pronto, Jesús salió a su encuentro y las saludó, diciendo: "Alégrense". Ellas se acercaron y, abrazándole los pies, se postraron delante de él.
(Brit Xadasha 1999)* Jine, Rabinu Melekh jaMashíax les salió al encuentro, diciendo: ¡Shalom alekhen! Y ellas, acercandose, abrazaron sus pies, y se postraron ante Rabinu Melekh jaMashíax.
(BTX)* Y he aquí Jesús les salió al encuentro, diciendo: ¡Salve! Y ellas se acercaron y se postraron ante Él y abrazaron sus pies.
(DA)* De repente, Yahshúa las alcanzó, y les dijo: "¡Shalom aleijem!" Ellas agarraron sus pies, cuando cayeron en tierra delante de El.
(LPD*)* De pronto, Jesús salió a su encuentro y las saludó, diciendo: "Alégrense". Ellas se acercaron y, abrazándole los pies, se postraron delante de él.
(MH-DuTillet)* Y cuando iban, sucedió que Yeshúa les salió al encuentro, y les dijo: «¡Shalom alekhém!» Y ellas se acercaron, le abrazaron los pies y le rindieron homenaje.»
(NBE*)* De pronto Jesús 'es salió al encuentro y las saludó diciendo: ¡Alégrense! Ellas se acercaron y se postraron, abrazándole los pies.
(NT AF*)* En esto, Jesús les salió al encuentro y las saludó; ellas se arrodillaron delante de él y le abrazaron los pies.
(NT PB)* He aquí Jesús les salió al encuentro, diciendo: ¡Salud! Ellas acercándose le asieron los pies, y le rindieron homenaje.
(NT "JO")* Jine, Rabinu Melekh jaMashíax les salió al encuentro, diciendo: ¡Shalom alekhen! Y ellas, acercandose, abrazaron sus pies, y se postraron ante Rabinu Melekh jaMashíax.
(PB)* He aquí Jesús les salió al encuentro, diciendo: ¡Salud! Ellas acercándose le asieron los pies, y le rindieron homenaje.
De manera que cuando "proskyneo" se dirige a Jehová Dios y no a hombres o a Cristo mismo, se hace con una actitud de mente y corazón especial.
Los testigos de Jehová modernos comenzaron su historia adorando y reconociendo al "único Dios verdadero" Jehová y rechazando de plano el dogma falso de la Trinidad.
El hecho que en el artículo se diga que Jesús no es el oídor de la oración, ni deben dirigirse a él oraciones y ruegos, deja más que claro que nunca fue adorado.
Última edición por expanium; 22-ene.-2017 a las 16:06
SUPER Usuario
Obviamente que Google no es una herramienta perfecta, por ahora, de lo contrario te puedes imaginar la cantidad d gente que quedria sin empleo...
Lo anterior queda mejor traducido asi :
"Y aunque no se nos instruye en ningun lugar a que hagamos nuestras peticiones a el [Jesus], no seria indebido hacerlo, pues tal actuar no esta prohibido en ninguna parte y, los discipulos lo adoraron [a Jesus] Mat. 28:9, 17. Zion's Watch Tower 1892 May 15 p.157 (traduccion libre)
Esto es lo que se enseñaba a los TJ antes de la prohibicion actual, prohibicion reciente que empezo en los años '50, como se ve en este ejemplo de entre muchos mas.
Saludos
.
Última edición por TOROS; 22-ene.-2017 a las 21:45
Banned
en Mateo 4:10 la "traducción" TJ dice esto:
Entonces Jesús le dijo: “¡Vete, Satanás! Porque está escrito: ‘Es a Jehová* tu Dios a quien tienes que adorar,
¿porque en ese caso “proskuneo” lo traducen los TJ como adorar?
parece obvio que "sólo" se traduce como "rinde homenaje" cuando se refiere a Cristo
SUPER Usuario
Otra pregunta.:
Adán y Eva fueron salvos?
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